Half as much again

I wrote elsewhere:

"On certain holidays the taxi rate went up to 'fare and a half', i.e. the
normal fare plus
half as much again."

I'm having second thoughts about whether this usage is strictly correct. My
intended meaning was "one-and-a-half times the normal fare", but "half as
much again" means "one-and-a-half times", so what I said was the logical
equivalent of "two-and-a-half times the normal fare". Or was it?

--
Guy Barry

On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:09:27 +0100, Mike Barnes
<email@anonym; wrote:

Guy Barry <guy.email@anonym;:
I wrote elsewhere:

"On certain holidays the taxi rate went up to 'fare and a half', i.e. the
normal fare plus
half as much again."

I'm having second thoughts about whether this usage is strictly correct. My
intended meaning was "one-and-a-half times the normal fare", but "half as
much again" means "one-and-a-half times", so what I said was the logical
equivalent of "two-and-a-half times the normal fare". Or was it?

I think you can relax. The "plus" and the "again" simply reinforce each
other. They're not additive.

I agree. In English having both, or similar words or phrases, seems to
be idiomatic.

"normal fare plus half as much again."
"normal fare plus half as much on top."
"normal fare with half as much again."
"normal fare with half as much on top."
"normal fare and half as much again."
"normal fare and half as much on top."
etc.

Some work better than others.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Guy Barry:
"On certain holidays the taxi rate went up to 'fare and a half', i.e. the
normal fare plus half as much again."

Mike Barnes:
I think you can relax. The "plus" and the "again" simply reinforce each
other. They're not additive.

I agree. I think that the etymological origin of the expression "half
as much again" must actually be something like Guy's sentence. You pay
the normal fare, and (or plus) you pay *again, half as much*.
--
Mark Brader "You mean he made love to you?"
Toronto "Well, he went through all the emotions."
email@anonym -- EVERY DAY'S A HOLIDAY

My text in this article is in the public domain.

On 25 July, 11:31, annily <ann...@annily.invalid> wrote:
On 25.07.12 05:14, Mark Brader wrote:

> Guy Barry:
>>> "On certain holidays the taxi rate went up to 'fare and a half', i.e.=
the
>>> normal fare plus half as much again."

> Mike Barnes:
>> I think you can relax. 0The "plus" and the "again" simply reinforce =
each
>> other. 0They're not additive.

> I agree. 0I think that the etymological origin of the expression "hal=
f
> as much again" must actually be something like Guy's sentence. 0You p=
ay
> the normal fare, and (or plus) you pay *again, half as much*.

Of course, it's easier and probably less confusing to say, "increased by
50%".

I've long thought (and that means my thought on this has been a longer
one than usual) that there is an inbuilt problem with the "one-and-a-
half times the normal fare" arrangement as it leads some non-
mathematical - or should I say "innumerate" - folk to imagine that
the fare has gone up by 150%. That is coz addition is a more common
and better known operation than multiplication, and some people can
think that "one-and-a-half-times" means ADD one and half of the amount
to the amount. In addition, there are still people who feel that it is
puzzling that multiplying some amount by one, does not change it in
the least.

myles [am now taking off shoes and socks to see if that's true...]
paulsen

"Lewis" <g.email@anonym; wrote in message
news:slrnk0tt9o.1aih.g.email@anonym...
In message <X5vPr.123066$IP4.email@anonym;
Guy Barry <guy.email@anonym; wrote:
> I wrote elsewhere:

> "On certain holidays the taxi rate went up to 'fare and a half', i.e.
the
> normal fare plus
> half as much again."

> I'm having second thoughts about whether this usage is strictly correct.
My
> intended meaning was "one-and-a-half times the normal fare", but "half
as
> much again" means "one-and-a-half times", so what I said was the logical
> equivalent of "two-and-a-half times the normal fare". Or was it?

No., Half as much again means the same thing as one-and-a-half, though I
would have said "half again as much".

That's my problem. "Half as much again" means "one-and-a-half times as
much". Therefore, logically, "the normal fare plus half as much again"
should mean "two-and-a-half times the normal fare". But it doesn't seem to.
How can x + 1.5x come to 1.5x?

--
Guy Barry

On Jul 25, 12:480pm, "Don Phillipson" <e...@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote:

The conventions of language forbid no particular meaning and do not disal=
low
strong personal intuitions: 0but meaning is (primarily) social, viz. sh=
ared
by members of the language community. 0 If we subscribe to the communit=
y,
we must accept that we may be outvoted, i.e. that personal meanings
may be deemed wrong, at least in common discourse.

Do you actually have any idea of the purpose of this group?

--
Guy Barry

On Jul 25, 6:140pm, CDB <bellemar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Don has been posting here for a long time, and probably has as good an
idea of the group's purpose as any of us, although not necessarily the
same idea as mine (happy hour) or yours (do tell). 0Perhaps his
language was a little formal; being translated, it meant that your
personal intuition of the meaning of "half as much again" doesn't
amount to much against the common understanding of the phrase, as
several people have already said less bluntly. 0SIUP.

To be quite honest, all that Don ever seems to say is "different
people use language differently, and you should respect that". I
know. However, the whole raison d'etre of this group is to discuss
people's language differences. If we all took Don's advice, there'd
be nothing to discuss.

--
Guy Barry

On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 10:39:12 -0700 (PDT), Guy Barry
<guy.email@anonym; wrote:

On Jul 25, 6:14 pm, CDB <bellemar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Perhaps his
language was a little formal; being translated, it meant that your
personal intuition of the meaning of "half as much again" doesn't
amount to much against the common understanding of the phrase, as
several people have already said less bluntly.

Can I please say one more thing. I queried my *own* usage of the
phrase. I normally say "X plus half as much again" to mean "one-and-a-
half times X"; but, realizing that people here are concerned about the
precise use of language, I thought that some people might take issue
with it. Hence I raised the issue in a separate thread. Is this not
what the group's about?

SIUP.

What does this mean?

I'd provide an explanation, but YMMV.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida